Isian
KOL
Reged: 03/15/04
Posts: 480
Loc: NSW, Australia
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Thank you for your explanation, Renee. 
I think you may have misjudged by spirituality somewhat. I do not consider myself Wiccan or Isian [in fact, Im not truely sure what an 'Isian' is]. You may be wondering why I use the username 'Isian' then. Long story short, the name of a roleplaying character I created. Nothing more
As for being 'solitary', it is not necessarily by choice ~ but rather the fact that I've not found a 'community' which I feel guided to join.
I think you may have mistaken what I said at one point ~ 'we are all priests/priestess' of our personal spirituality'. Let me try and make my point a different way. Surely you do not encourage or impose apon your followers to blindly accept your precepts, your views or even your words as being the 'be all and end all'? You encourage them to find Ma'at in their own hearts and lives? To make their own decisions? That does not mean you arn't to provide counsel or direction opinion when it is asked for... but you do not impose your counsel or opinion? Thus, they ~are~ the priest/priestess of their own PERSONAL faith. I read a post in which you wrote...and I can not quote exactly, so forgive me if I read this wrong 'we are all alone in some aspect, despite the fact we enjoy community'. Your comment was by no means on this topic, but I found it an interesting one in light of this subject.
Community mindset is totally different, and one I completely agree with you apon.
However, you still seem to be alluding to the point that since 'most kemetic religions' agree with your world view, I must not be kemetic? Yes, there is a very large difference between your spirituality and mine. You want to 'recreate', I have no desire to as much as Ancient Egypt facinates me I want to find the Netjeru -today-... as -myself-.. not some misplaced entity that should have been born thousands apon thousands of years ago. But that is just ~my~ desire... and I respect and would fight to have yours respected.
I am also Eclectic. ~chuckles~ Most people assume that mean's Im a grave robber of some sort... stealing from all, committing to nothing. The truth is that I find astounding... awesome beauty in the spirituality that crosses this globe. The Jewish faith, the Christians... Buddhists...Islamic faiths...Wiccan...Reconstructionist Kemeticism and many I have yet to explore. There is just so much beauty. If I can amplify that beauty in my own ceremony, my own ritual.. my own spirituality, I will never feel guilty for doing so. And I ~am~ committed. Committed to being a 'seeker', committed to the Netjeru in my daily life. Committed to finding knowledge, not to impress... but to enlighten my own mind so that I may one day go 'home' and dwell in the house of the Netjeru. I know this may not fit in with what ~you~ believe the spirit of Kemeticism is about, but it is ~all~ about mine
BTW, thankyou for your most current post. It was wonderful hearing about every-day things from you rather than discussions on differences which would only seperate us further
With deep respect,
Jen
ps. Oh! Perhaps this will help you understand my spirituality a little better ~ Heru's Temple.
Edited by RevRenee (03/17/04 03:10 PM)
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RevRenee
Founder-Wehemu
Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
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Em hotep Isian
Reading your post made me aware that we really need a thread
here on the public side in which people can share these inter-faith discussions. I have begin one and moved your description of your personal beliefs not related to the question of Heru as the distant one there.
Talk to you there
Best
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Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org
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WabJenSoko
Wab Priest / KOL Newsletter Editor / Central Regio
Reged: 08/22/01
Posts: 850
Loc: Lost in Middle America
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Em hotep Jen *bow*
Surely you do not encourage or impose apon your followers to blindly accept your precepts, your views or even your words as being the 'be all and end all'? You encourage them to find Ma'at in their own hearts and lives? To make their own decisions? That does not mean you arn't to provide counsel or direction opinion when it is asked for... but you do not impose your counsel or opinion? Thus, they ~are~ the priest/priestess of their own PERSONAL faith.
I would use the term "caretaker" rather than "priest/ess" - the priesthood has a distinctly different role in our faith than that of an individual worshipper. Not a better or worse one, but a *different* one.
Speaking as a temple member...temple members aren't expected to blindly follow every word uttered from our esteemed Wehemu's lips (however, she's got good instincts and a great track record for being right!  ). When it comes to interpretation of the tenets of the faith, however, yes we do. For one thing, she's eminently qualified. For another, she's in charge, as our Ed. director.  (as Rev. Sedgwick is our Heri-tep, so she's in charge, too).
To use an analogy that compares Kemeticism with Neopaganism (without making any assumptions about your personal path, but this may help me express the differences between the two in a clearer manner): Neopaganism is a river, and upon that river, each person floats in a small boat. Some of those boats cluster together and navigate the waters through cooperation as a common entity. Together, those boats make up a larger watercraft, while each person maintains their own "boatspace" so to speak. Each person's oars take part in steering the craft, but there is no common rudder--each individual boat has a hand in keeping the group moving in a single direction.
Because of the importance of community, and the active role it plays in African religions, Kemetics navigate the river in a single boat. We share common "boatspace" with our fellows, and each person's oar moves the boat in the same direction. Only some don't row. Some batten down hatches or man sails or bail bilgewater. There is also an individual whose job it is to man the rudder.
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senebty,
Jen Sokoloski, Wab Priest of Ptah
Per AnkhThe Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
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RevRenee
Founder-Wehemu
Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
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Em hotep all
<bow>
The poster took great offense at these posts. She was upset that we did not keep this thread in the Heru "the distant one " thread....And is insisting that I have said she "is not Kemetic and that as a solitary she is not qualified to speak on anything."
What I do believe is that being solitary neither qualifies nor disqualifies a person from anything.
Neither does being a Priest . The question is what qualifications do they have:)
We do not censor posts here based on people's qualifications either. We just talk, discuss agree or disagree. In prayer threads we support one another and do not argue... In the discussions -disagreement and exploration is a great thing. We do insist on open discussion and on taking academically acceptible sources seriously.
And we do believe that they matter in some way (there is a diversity at KOL on HOW they matter) in our personal religious experience.
I suspect a big part of the issue here may be that in this case what we do is simply not a good fit for her. Looking at the website the sources which she points people interested in Ancient Egypt are those of ceremonial magic, egyptian flavored wicca and Bauvauls alternative Egyptian History. While we have wiccan members who are perfectly happy here they all do share our interest and committment to accepted scholarship for understanding the Ancient Egyptian faith and practices and understand that Kemet Online is not about Wiccan Practices (Although we do have a private and now public interfaith area wher ethis can be discussed and we do welcome those of other faiths).
Someone who is not interested in these really would not be a happy camper here. And that is fine.
We do have a shared understanding of Kemetic Faith based on the definition , conference rules and sign up agreements.
And really that agreement was plenty wide enough to enable this discussion and the discussion of Heru as "the distant one."
And its more than OK to disagree...yet ..we will ask for your evidence and reasons and present our own.
Perhaps I have been in academics too long:) It is very odd to me when someone claims that I am insisting as a Priest on being infallible...when I simply posted an opinion and backed it up with scholarly record
Heh That never stopped Kwaemese from telling me I am wrong..nor does it stop me from responding to him with reason and evidence:)
What I find too often among pagan and neo-pagan communities
(NOT ALL- A member of Per Ankh's board is a Wiccan there are some very solid folks--but a strong tendency among most) is a knee jerk anti-leadership stance, and anti-professionalism
Often it comes down to the belief that not only are all persons equal as persons...but all opinions and perspectives on anything are equally valid. I can read a book and claim to know as much as someone who has studied and taught the subject for 30 years. And if they think differently and don't support me in that ..they are against me and intend to try to hurt me in some way.
It is odd. She asked and this is fairly typical "What gives YOU the right to end a conversation on Kemet OnLine!"
I have such a hard time understanding the mentality that can even ASK that. It is like asking what gives Wab Sandie the right to say "no smoking" in her house house. And what gives another the right to smoke in their home (however unwise that may be;-))? The question does not make sense
I try to go as they say in NLP to second position ..that is stand in someones shoes-- but I find it hard to grok at the moment.
Hmmmmmm
Best
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Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org
Edited by RevRenee (03/18/04 07:10 AM)
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WabSandie
Senior Wab Priest /Ritual Coordinator
Reged: 04/11/02
Posts: 898
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
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Em hotep! *bow*
Quote:
The poster took great offense at these posts. She was upset that we did not keep this thread in the Heru "the distant one " thread
That's too bad. I think moving this thread gives it the attention an important issue deserves.
Quote:
I have such a hard time understanding the mentality that can even ASK that. It is like asking what gives Wab Sandie the right to say "no smoking" in her house house. And what gives another the right to smoke in their home (however unwise that may be;-))? The question does not make sense
I think it's an issue of context. Would we dare to tell her what she can do and believe as a private person unaffliated with any specific religious organization? Of course not! But as a Shemsu in Per Ankh, yes, our Sebau give us direction, and it is our responsibility to work with them and to accept their help and guidance. And I feel that's a very good thing.
Quote:
Often it comes down to the belief that not only are all persons equal as persons...but all opinions and perspectives on anything are equally valid. I can read a book and claim to know as much as someone who has studied and taught the subject for 30 years. And if they think differently and don't support me in that ..they are against me and intend to try to hurt me in some way.
Sure, if a person is following her own bliss, her opinions and perspectives are just as valid as anyone else's. If a person is a member of an established religious organization, that point of view just doesn't fly. Can you imagine a newly confirmed Catholic challenging the Pope on issues of theology? LOL And before anyone says it,  it's not a "power over" issue; it's an issue of identity and of structure.
A religion can't exist without a sense of identity.
The weaker a religion's identity is, the harder it is to build a community, much less a stable, solid, inter-dependent and tight-knit community. The religion's identity, worldview, and culture bring its members together and help them orient in the same direction so they as well as the organization can grow. Without a strong sense of identity, relationships are flimsy and can fall apart at the blink of an eye. Without a strong sense of identity, each member may try to encourage the organization to grow in a different direction. What would happen if each molecule in a drop of water moved in a different direction? You'd end up with a lot of separate molecules and no drop. (And I'll stop there before I write a 50-page paper on the topic. I could go on and on... LOL  )
The thing is, a solid sense of identity is built on boundaries and a structure. One of the problems I observed during my time as a Wiccan is that the Wiccans I knew didn't want to exclude anyone who might want to self-identify as a Wiccan, so no boundaries were drawn. We ended up with a coven in town whose leaders sexually abused coven members at their initiations. We ended up with coven leaders who beat their spouses, and with coven leaders who abused their children. By the time the local elders decided they had to draw some boundaries or see their religion taken over by self-proclaimed "leaders" using their status as a free ticket to hurt people, the damage had already been done. By then, people had been hurt, the precedent had been set, and there wasn't a whole lot they could do to fix the situation. I know that's a rather extreme example of what can happen when a religion has no boundaries, and I certainly don't mean to imply that Wiccans are evil or that Wicca has no boundaries, I just felt it was a very telling example. I'm sure a similar example could be given from darn near any religion; I just happen to have been Wiccan before I came here.
To me, the boundaries and structure of a religion aren't burdensome limitations, they are necessities. Within the boundaries of a playground, children can climb as high as they want, dig holes as deep as they want, play with toys, play with each other, whatever. If the playground has no boundaries, it's all too easy to wander around so much that you get completely lost and can't find your way home. As children of Netjer, the structure and worldview of Per Ankh provides a framework to help members develop and grow. We can spend our time learning, growing, deepening, and developing rather than wandering around without guidance. We don't have to reinvent the wheel and individually solve each issue of ethics, liturgy, cosmology, etc. that arises. I, for one, am thrilled to the gills that we have a solid structure and such experts as Rev. Renee and Rev. Sedgwick to give us guidance, work with us to solve problems, give us feedback, help us see things we wouldn't see by ourselves, and draw upon their decades' worth of learning and experience to teach us. That means we can spend our time learning and strengthening and deepening our relationship to Netjer, the Akhu, our community and ourselves and less time anguishing over the minutiae.
But all of the above is just my opinion, and while I am glad there are people who agree, I am just as glad there are people who don't. I mean, how boring would this world be if there was only one worldview and one religion? Blech!
Senebty!
Wab Sandie
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Senior Wab Priest of HetHert-Sekhmet --|<>]
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
www.per-ankh.org
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RevRenee
Founder-Wehemu
Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
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Hotep folks
<bow>
I really do think that it *feels* like a matter of self-preservation more than of deliberate acting out or disrespect.
When we were young we lacked the ability to set safe boundries and make choices as to who to trust..over time based on experience and evidence.
I know it took me a while to *really* get that I CAN make appropriate choices and keep myself safe. It seemed the ONLY options were be splat out open there in the midst of possible danger...or create a wall and not allow anyone to pass.
Given those choices..anti-leadership or authority would be the sensible position.
And this is a dynamic that anyone whether in any position of authority or not in a temple such as our own has to come up against.
Some will do it well, some will not. And most of us will do it better or worse at different times.
Yet I do not see this as "wasted" at all. It's all just a sort of growth in reallt being ourselves so we CAN reach out to other humans,,,and the divine
PS Welcome back Jen(Isian) ;-) You rock....even if you are a eceletic solitary *ducks*
Best
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Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org
Edited by RevRenee (03/19/04 03:43 PM)
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Isian
KOL
Reged: 03/15/04
Posts: 480
Loc: NSW, Australia
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Blessings
I wanted to make an apology (of my own accord and with complete free will!) if any were offended by my posts or my blindsightedness in respects to Reverand Renee's posts.
If I was truthful, I have to say that I probably did mean to show Renee disrespect... but it was not out of a maliciousness towards her, but a certain ignorance that was indeed to 'protect' myself [in matters of 'protection, I've found that logic doesn't always come into play ]. I am deeply sorry if it may have affected you [esp. to Andy who had to see the ~whole~ thing, as well as Reverand Segwick]. I've already apologised to Reverand Renee... so I won't repeat myself on that task [she'd probably smack me! ].
But I would like to thank her for persevering with me, even when I didn't make one iota of sense . There are not many that will just listen to someone strike out at phantom's of the past with the wisdom to know that it is not a ~real~ attack at them. Thank you.
'....even if you are a eceletic solitary *ducks* '
~LOL~ I thought I was supposed to be the cheeky one?
With deep respect,
Jen
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RevRenee
Founder-Wehemu
Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
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Em hotep Jen/Isian and all
:bow:
Quote:
'....even if you are a eceletic solitary *ducks* '
~LOL~ I thought I was supposed to be the cheeky one?
Good luck on maintaining that idea
It is a requirement for our priesthood 
Jen you really are among folks who "get it" around that stuff. I think all of the Priesthood and candidated have been there
Well except for Shanee and Michelle (laughing)--who we complain about a bit as they seem not to have those authority type issues. With Shanee..well she is in the military so what do you expect *ducks*
Michelle..heh...I have no idea why not! Hmmmm very odd. They still have time to come up against them.
This is actually a good thing...People can see
1. that it happens
2. it can be gotten over
3. It does not need to be made a big deal by those in leadership
Phew! It seems so sane.
So glad your back:) Go jump in and disagree.
Best
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Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org
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WabSandie
Senior Wab Priest /Ritual Coordinator
Reged: 04/11/02
Posts: 898
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
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Yay! I'm glad things are worked out!!!
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Senior Wab Priest of HetHert-Sekhmet --|<>]
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
www.per-ankh.org
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