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tamarion
KOL


Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 21
Loc: calif
John/Isep Reflections
      #20240 - 10/16/03 07:13 AM

I feel bad for the life lost, and wish things had gone better in Isep's life so he would not have felt he had to do what he did, before in his journal thing, and now, passing on as he did. He will be in my thoughts the next 70 days. Thanks for sending the info about his passing...i have not kept up here for some time, shame it took something like this to remind me of you all here.

Tamarion

Edited by RevRenee (10/16/03 07:12 PM)


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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
Re:reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: tamarion]
      #20242 - 10/16/03 07:26 AM

Hotep
<bow>

Stepping out of the Priest role a moment.

It makes me furious that that guy would waste his life.

I always thought he was smart enough that he would eventually recognize that he did not need to allow an early error to mess up all that he could have done or been

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I am furious at him for that!

</rant>

Rev Renee

--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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tamarion
KOL


Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 21
Loc: calif
Re:reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: RevRenee]
      #20243 - 10/16/03 07:49 AM

Hotep <bow> to Rev Renee...
i have known too many people, family members esp that wasted their lives, and some that died because of it...some who 'had it all' as far as brains or talent, and some who didn't realise that they had so much more than they thought...i know what you mean about being angry. I am still angry at them years and years later. recently a family member of mine gave up and stopped hoping, and didn't care what happened to him...it is like he went on a death-wish. if a person can see past the outside of a person and see what they are capable of it hurts and makes them angry, and sad, and sometimes disgusted with the way things turn out. yes, what a waste for someone to forget they are human and err, but that they can change and learn from the past to better their future. we mourn the loss of what could have been for Isep. sometimes it can be a wake up call to others to live and love and be and treasure life, but also to forgive oneself for the past and move on, and learn from mistakes...that's why we make them. sometimes errors cannot be fixed, but then we work from where we are, that exact place, to grow and learn and be better than we were the day before. each day is a fresh start as long as we don't let the past drag us down, and make us lose hope. without hope we do anything just to barely exist...and that is what it becomes, just existing, til we give up on life itself.
okay...off my soap box.

Tam

Edited by RevRenee (10/16/03 07:13 PM)


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RevSedgwickAdministrator
Heri Tep Hem Netjer


Reged: 04/12/02
Posts: 361
Loc: Racine, WI
Re:reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: tamarion]
      #20259 - 10/16/03 03:27 PM

Hotep, Tamarion and all! <bow>

Let me join you on that soapbox before you step down, Tamarion. I am very angry, too. I was angry that Isep hurt people and knew it and didn't seem to care. I was angry that he was so smart and talented and he turned all of that to goals that weren't worthy of who he could be. I was angry that for whatever reason he was completely convinced that he really had no other choice and that no one would ever give him another choice, even though Rev Renee made it clear that he could have another chance here. I was angry that he seemed to be making it his life's work to post really mean and hurtful things about people, in the name of exposing the truth. And I was angry that he felt he had been so hurt by some of these people that he had no other option but to take this kind of action.

But I'm most angry that he took his life yesterday, if that's in fact what he did. What a waste! That makes me furious. I never gave up on him or on hoping that he could see the world differently and then act differently. But he seemingly gave up on himself and now I will never have a chance to know him here. Man! That makes me really mad. And sad.

Rev Sedgwick

--------------------
Rev Sedgwick Heskett, Hemet NebetHet-Nit and Amun
Heri Tep Hem Netjer Per Ankh
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org

Edited by RevRenee (10/16/03 07:14 PM)


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Caithlyn
Priest Candidate


Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 253
Loc: Ada, Ohio
reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: RevSedgwick]
      #20265 - 10/16/03 06:02 PM

Hotep Rev Sedgwick, Rev Renee, Rev Jade and all members!
*bows*

This is very sad and shocking news. That someone who touched so many people would be gone from their family of friends and associates.

I didn't know Isep, except from his posts, and the posts of some of those that he touched. But from what I have read, and heard... this was a person who was lost to himself. It's always a shame when someone becomes almost unreachable and rejects help when it is offered, or considers the situation to be helpless... or more to the point... that life was a matter of being "me against the world" mentality.

For the brief time that I knew of Isep... I saw his energy rip through things that were very tender and fragile... relationships and alliances between people within a new culture, and a temple with a different worldview.

For me it was hard enough coming from the mindset that I was I approached my daily life with, to come to a place with some totally foreign thoughts, try them on, and get so intensely tested while still trying to work through the details.

Part of me is angry for this massive disruption... Because it didn't just happen to me, it happened to many people. Part of me is angry at Isep for how he lived his life (the last 9 months that I know of, at least) and part of me can see that he was meant to accomplish something in this world... and perhaps that is to shake all of us up.

To give those that remain behind something to remember, something to think about, and something to re-evaluate. He made mistakes, and we watched it or lived through them. But whatever he did or thought... we are more the wiser as a community for his lessons.

Yes, it was a waste that a young man would commit suicide... but, on the other hand... there is a place, so dark and so lonely, that you can feel like the on-coming light is a train ready to run you over. There is a sense of pain that can be so blinding that it keeps you from seeing that there are people that care and could help. And I feel, this is my opinion, that this is the place where Isep was in his final hours.

May his passing be swift.
May his lessons be learned.
May his heart be weighed and his soul be given another chance.

Senebty,

SC

--------------------
Caithlyn Hydock, Priest Candidate
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


Edited by RevRenee (10/16/03 09:57 PM)


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SatAsetNebetHet
KOL


Reged: 10/16/02
Posts: 499
Loc: USA
reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: Caithlyn]
      #20266 - 10/16/03 06:55 PM

em hotep all *bow*,

I was angry at Isep for his actions here. That's all I ever knew of him really. I'd heard he was running from the law later. I know he touched some with love and others with rage. He will be missed by many.

In the end, at least he died on his terms. At least he did what he thought he had to do.

May his soul progress well to become an Akhu.

senebty,
Chelsea Luellon

--------------------
Daughter of Aset and Nebet Het
Devotee of Wepwawet, Nit, Wesir and Sekhmet

Edited by RevRenee (10/16/03 09:58 PM)


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WabSandie
Senior Wab Priest /Ritual Coordinator


Reged: 04/11/02
Posts: 898
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
Re:reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: RevRenee]
      #20272 - 10/16/03 11:06 PM

Em Hotep! *bow*

to be brutally blunt, my first thoughts were "well, ma'at works"...

What I'm coming up against now is the challenge of really experiencing Zep Tepi. I had just pretty much put John out of my mind and so I never worried about resolving the behavior and the person. I--and I'm sure I'm not the only one--get to face that now. My challenge at the moment is really one of releasing and letting go so I can move on and be what I need to be.

I have no problem separating the behavior and the person when people screw up here and there like people are wont to do. I have no problem separating the person and the behavior when people screw up a lot and I can still see they're really trying. Even if I don't agree with their behavior, if I can have faith that they really see what they're doing as the best option at the time, I can separate the person from the behavior. I guess the problem I'm having doing that with John is that he maintained the same types of behaviors for so long and put so much energy into them and really didn't seem to care if what he was doing was right or wrong. He struck me as highly self-serving, and I really got the sense that he didn't have any remorse for screwing people over, that in many ways and at many times, he enjoyed it. That's the problem I'm having.

I fully admit there are areas in which I lack seriously in the compassion department, and I know he had a tough time, but lots of people have tough times and manage to pull their heads out of their backsides...lots of people suffer with depression and psychosis and abuse and addiction and don't make a living out of hurting and taking advantage of people. It angers me that he did those things, that he seemed to glean some sort of deviant glee out of it, that he felt like the rules of ma'at didn't apply to him, like he had special dispensation to be an agent of isfet, and that he did so purposely and without any remorse. I'm sure if I'd known him apart from LJ and the politics in Per Ankh, I might feel differently. But I didn't, and I don't. We all have hardships, and the way we choose to deal with them really reveals the kind of person we are. Like I've said before, though, there are some areas in which I am a total hardass...

I am glad that folks in the temple and KOL are being supportive and not perpetuating any of the quarreling that happened previously. I'm glad the posts so far have been positive and caring. I think that's really awesome and shows just what caliber people we have.

I just can't bring myself to do that, yet, though. I wouldn't be able to do it sincerely, and I really don't want to be a hypocrite. I need to get myself to a point where I can get back to Zep Tepi. I'm a big believer in a person being responsible for their actions, and I have to admit that on one level, it bothers me that people are seeming to largely forgive and forget the nasty things he did...not because it does any good to continue to hold him responsible but because it seems to that petty, angry part of me to be sending a message that everything has just been accepted and it's okay. I know that's not really the case, and it's not really a rational response, but that's the thing about feelings...they're so biological and organic and messy...LOL

I, though, despite the prevailing tendencies in society, have never been one to talk differently about a person just because they've died. If I thought they were irresponsible and jerky in life, I feel like a major hypocrite if I do a 180 and speak only kindly and glowingly about them after they've passed on. So what I feel I need to do is figure out what exactly is making me angry, get it resolved, and get to a point where I can truly separate the behavior and the person/spirit and sincerely hope his spirit goes on to better experiences and do my part to help that. I think, actually, writing my thoughts and feelings down has gone a long way toward doing that because it's helped me begin to clarify what's bothering me, and once I can see it, I can weigh whether or not my responses make sense to me.

Senebty!

Wab Sandie


--------------------
Senior Wab Priest of HetHert-Sekhmet --|<>]
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
www.per-ankh.org


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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
Re:reflections John/Isep Reflections new [Re: WabSandie]
      #20273 - 10/16/03 11:38 PM

Em hotep Wab Sandie
<bow>

You are asolutely right and John would be among first to agree..that John got pleasure from causes confusion and Isfet.Our faith will never condone that sort of deliberate and malicious harm...regardles of the cause.

And the fact that he suffered greatly in life or was mistreated and abused does not make it any more acceptible.

I can also see that you would never have been in a position to see the marshmellow John...or that fearful little boy John (which he worked so darn hard to hide) or the compassionate helper and lover.

I suspect no one who knew him for any lebgth of time that knew the later did not also experience some of the former

I had glimses of it...so I do know that those who know that side of John aren't just making it up.

I have had...and still havea lot of hope for John..

And to be honest purhaps now he can reach out and accept the assistance of the Akhu and Netjer..which he could not do when he walked among us.

What I know though is..here is a time we CAN ACTUALLY help him do the right thing.

Praying for him..beleiving he CAN come through this transition successfully is absolutely essential right now.

As is supporting those affected by him --for good, bad or both as they go through their feelings..

Which are bound to be conflicted...
As uch for those closest to him and those he thinks hated him because they did not permit these behaviors.

We need to call out to Nebet Het:
He has come to You
O Nebet Het
John Hagins has come to You
Receive Him With Open Arms

Johns future was in his hands. Now for the next period..it is in ours.

Keep his name and the candles going. We will keep the rites happening her at Sekhem School


Blessings
Rev Renee


--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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Nebra
KOL


Reged: 08/01/02
Posts: 2383
Loc: Left kansas withToto
Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: tamarion]
      #20275 - 10/17/03 12:48 AM

Hotep everyone..... I didn't truely know John but I am very saddened by what on the surface seems to be another bad choice.... This choice has hurt even those that loved him..... ending one's self may not be wrong ...... but sometimes the reason for doing it is..... a prison term isn't forever.... but death truely is..... I'll light a candle for him and pray that the way he lead his earthy life did not harm his souls chances in the hall of Judgment ... that's the side of this that has me profoundly saddened

--------------------


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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: Nebra]
      #20277 - 10/17/03 01:04 AM

Hotep Nebra
<bow>

Heka is important here.
State any prayer POSITiVELY

For instance Pray that he IS Received
That They WILL Justify Him etc

Speak to Netjer with Confidence that They will Raise Him up,

Best

Rev Renee

--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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Llyne_Merytamon
Priest Candidate / Pacific Northwest Regional Coordinator


Reged: 08/10/02
Posts: 519
Loc: Seattle, WA -- Land of Tefnut!
Isep new [Re: RevRenee]
      #20280 - 10/17/03 04:54 AM

Em hotep, all. *bow*

I did not really have a personal relationship with Isep. I didn't know much about him before he came here to do the New Members Class -- though I recognized the name because I knew of him through other people in the wider Kemetic community, and the effects he had on them. I think he made a few comments on posts I made in group Kemetic journals on livejournal, in a friendly and interested tone, as I introduced myself as strongly connected to Sekhmet, and he felt himself so as well. I'm not sure he would have recognized my name if you asked him.

I was not auditing the NMC he was taking a part of until after the chaos had mostly run its course. I found about it from a link in the livejournal of someone in my friends list, and traced the way things fell out from the point of view of the self-perceived injured parties (Amy, Alan and John) and their friends. I talked about it with Andy, whom I'd just introduced to KOL and Per Ankh recently, and who was in the same NMC. I soon after called the priests and wound up being given access to the NMC boards, and went to see the seeds of the controversy that had so quickly gone wildly out of hand. And then I was also here when his criminal activities came to public light, and the emotional turmoil in the wake of that.

So I'm not very connected to him at all, but I have a point of view on events that I haven't seen expressed and that might be helpful to some -- so here is how I feel.

The single thing that made me angriest about his actions is that he did so many of them in Sekhmet's name. "Well, I'm Sekhmet's son and I'm wreaking needful destruction, I know She loves me and I think She approves of my actions because She's never stopped me, and it's the kind of thing She might do Herself if She were here. I'm acting as Her agent. She really wants me to do it."

That was simply an unconsciable insult and how DARE he profane Sekhmet's, MY MOTHER'S name in using it to justify his selfish and power-hungry actions when really they stood against Ma'at, against everything Sekhmet protects? Just because encounters you cause are bloody and painful does not make them sacred just because you choose to serve a goddess who once served justice in a bloody and painful way.

It made me righteously furious.

But. . . I really felt that he was indeed beloved by Sekhmet, and that he at least in large part, consciously, really believed in the justifications in Her name. He didn't have the perspective to see how these justifications appeared so very wrong to others.

So, I asked myself why Sekhmet let him get away with such a perversion of what She represents.

And what I came up with is that he was in serious backlash from growing up in some abusive situation where he was helpless. He was integrating Sekhmet's example of personal power in such a way that made him swing to the opposite extreme, of being wildly overassertive -- and that this had to run its course and burn itself out before he could step back and say "Yeah, I went out of control for a while," and begin picking up the pieces of his life and reassessing them in a mature and responsible way. He had to mirror Sekhmet's coming to balance after going to extremes -- Her curtailing his ability to do this would be much less productive in the end (forcing an awareness of its limits and his ultimate helplessness) than if he came to the realization that he really WAS powerful and had been using it wrongly, and had the ability to use it in better ways, on his own.

So in a way he WAS acting as a model of Sekhmet's energy in the world, but what was really being destroyed and who the example was really meant for weren't what he thought. He wasn't "showing them", HE was the one who ultimately had to see it in himself. The people he hurt weren't really improvement projects of Sekhmet's, they were more or less bystanders, casualties incurred in Her improvement project that was himself.

Even though he wasn't sensitive to the reason why his justifications so bothered others, and maybe not to the fact that the justifications were a problem in themselves, he knew that ACTIONS upset people a whole lot. In some way he took a perverse pride in being pushed away by people because of what he did. It seemed to tell him he was doing his job, and that the pain of being separated from people he really cared about and whose approval he desperately craved was the necessary price to be paid for being an agent of Sekhmet. It let him feel competent. It made him feel that there was some higher purpose in doing what he did, the only thing he'd figured out how to do well -- and he *needed* that purpose because he didn't think there was any way for him to learn how to do something more constructive, anything else in which he could be competent.

I think he needed that sense of purpose very much, because deep down, he really didn't think he was a nice person at all or that what he was doing was right. . . and that he was regretful of this, and that he felt there was nothing else in his power to do.

I think that intensity of his need for purpose and his repressed but simmering regret made him turn a blind eye to the logical flaws in the argument shoring up his justifications. And I think that as time went on he was becoming less and less able to do so.

Maybe if the law hadn't caught up with him when it did, he might have been in a place to make a breakthrough and see what he was really doing, and be able to reach out to others to try to get help to face that, and find some new more constructive way to deal with his life.

But if he was in that vulnerable limbo of mind where he couldn't really believe what he'd loudly been telling himself and others for so long, but didn't yet have something else to believe that didn't utterly shred his self-esteem, he didn't have the chance to address it. His past came to reckon with him before he was ready. He ran, and he fell back on the emotional self-defense mechanisms he'd been using so long, even if they didn't work so well anymore. They were better than stepping out into the void. Physical day-to-day survival came first, evading those who were trying to capture him.

Maybe what killed him was his realization that the arguments he'd been using to prop up his sense of self were weak and broken. And he felt so terribly alone, from having pushed away so many people, and for not being able to reach out to those who still cared enough to want to talk, because he was a fugitive and there was no way to make contact that wouldn't give himself away and quite possibly hurt them. And perhaps he'd woken up to how much he'd already hurt them unwittingly, and was half-paralyzed by the shame, so maybe even if it was safe he wouldn't have been able to make himself reach out.

And he didn't see any hope in a future where his worldview was shattered and he was imprisoned, so he destroyed that future, and probably hoped to destroy his own sense of awareness in the doing.

I don't think he was running towards the Beautiful West. I think that he was in a place where he'd feel the pannier of the scales bearing his heart would probably drop and hit the floor clattering. While the Devourer would provide permanent oblivion such as he craved. . . he would have to disappoint all of his gods in person before that, and be totally aware of the process all the while.

I think when he found his back to the wall, he looked to Sekhmet for aid, but his illusions fell away and all he could see was her true terrible power, a bloody sword in Her hands, and quail in fear -- not seeing the depths of love and compassion in Her eyes.

I think he lost faith in Netjer because he looked at himself honestly and deeply for the first time in a long time and loathed what he saw. How could gods who see so much more than mortals possibly love him, and if for some reason They did, how on earth could he respect Them -- he couldn't love himself, and he had the most to get out of that from sheer unavoidable self-interest!

And so he died, destroying himself.

Of course, this is all really just extrapolation. I don't know, we'll probably never know. But it feels right to me. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit -- but I don't think that in life he ever really gave himself enough credit, more just shows of bravado he didn't entirely believe himself.

I didn't know him well, but something in Isep made me like him, even when he was behaving like a jerk a lot of the time. I felt there was good in him, waiting to come out someday. It might still come out, but we won't see it in this world. I truly felt he was one of Sekhmet's and that She loved him, even if the reasons weren't apparent to anyone else. Maybe only humans need reasons to love. In some sense, however distant and strained, he felt like a brother to me.

When I heard he committed suicide to evade the authorities, I was angry and annoyed. I felt that for one who claimed to serve Sekhmet, to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of one's actions was to basically slap Ma'at across the face. A final insult, a final turning of the back on what he claimed to serve.

I don't feel that way anymore. I'm sad. And maybe I have a certain level of commiseration with him because I have myself contemplated suicide, more than once -- even after Netjer entered my life. I know how it feels to believe that the only way to end unbearable pain is to exit this life. I have come to abhor the idea as a terrible waste and a wound to people who have known the person, even glancingly. You can never tell the full effects you have on the lives of people you touch. But nonetheless -- I think being in that emotional place gives a level of understanding that is impossible to fully attain otherwise, and never goes away.

I didn't have all these insights into Isep's possible perspectives before I started to write this, only a couple. The writing made things come clear as it happened, flow. I'm not sure it's from me. It wouldn't be the first time. That's how my writing often works, scary as it is for me.

I feel that his ka still exists. I think he's aware of a lot of what we are saying and doing in regards to him.

I feel in some way that he's near me now, that he is stunned --- and tearful if kas can weep -- at the amount of compassion and understanding and affection he's inspired in someone he barely knew, wasn't aware of, and who mostly got to see his most negative side.

Maybe I'm being an avatar of Sekhmet in this, I don't know.

In the ear of my mind, I feel I hear him saying "Thank you."

Make of it what you will.

I burn a candle to light your way on the paths of the Amduat, brother, next to my image of Sekhmet who walks with us both.

-- Llyne Merytamon.


--------------------
You can surrender
Without a prayer
But never really pray
Pray without surrender
-- Rush

Llyne Burton, Priest Candidate
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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crimson
KOL


Reged: 04/07/03
Posts: 508
Loc: Nottingham, england
Re: Isep new [Re: Llyne_Merytamon]
      #20281 - 10/17/03 10:40 AM

i did not know john at all, I believe that he was done here before i joined....but the backlash of his actions were still being felt at that time, and so I am slightly aware of him, and little more.....but nonetheless, I will keep praying for him that he will be given a second chance, and that he has learned from this life and will make things right in the next one.

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Nebra
KOL


Reged: 08/01/02
Posts: 2383
Loc: Left kansas withToto
Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: RevRenee]
      #20286 - 10/17/03 12:56 PM

I'm trying for positive .....

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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


Reged: 06/12/01
Posts: 2727
Loc: Racine Wisconsin
Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: Nebra]
      #20288 - 10/17/03 02:11 PM

chuckle
<bow>

Nebra--You are doing great!

You know..I was just thinking..on the private KOL and Per Ankh boards...we don't talk a lot about death except in prayers for Akhu and those who pass or who loose a loved one. And hat makes sense as the Ancient Egyptians and Kemetic traditionalists are more concerned with LIFE.

John's death though..because of his relationships to folks in the Kememtic faith has really challenged us I think to reflect on afterlife issues and well as certain ethical issues. I will open a few threads publically for these discussions as they seem on enough people's heart/minds.

I hesistate a bit to do this because it is really really essential that we keep the prayers up for John..and support for members who were either close to him (in the positive sense) or strongly affected by him and/or his suicide.

Let's try it. If it seems to distract I can lock the thread but then for those for whom those are the pressing questions would still have it for reference.
People proces differently and I and members of the priesthood are receiving enough questions about Kemetic Faith and such things as suicide, how one can respect an Akhu who was..well lets say "a jerk"-- during life...what happens at Judgement if someone seems to rejoice in doing bad ..heh....etc

So I'll do that in a bit or one of the Priests or our senior trainee may want to start the threads. (I teach college online and need to attend to those classes some)

I am really really awed by how beautifully you guys have all responded on this.
Hey I'm getting out of here before I go mushy on a public thread!

Best

Rev Renee

--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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Llyne_Merytamon
Priest Candidate / Pacific Northwest Regional Coordinator


Reged: 08/10/02
Posts: 519
Loc: Seattle, WA -- Land of Tefnut!
Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: RevRenee]
      #20289 - 10/17/03 06:02 PM

Em hotep *bow*

All kinds of ideas about how the ancient Egyptians would have thought about questions that were coming up in my mind about death in general have been rising to the surface, and I was thinking about posting some of them myself.

In thinking about it, I realized that the period of John's mourning will fall across the Mysteries of Wesir coming up in what to us is November, so that in many ways, beginning to reflect on these issues at this time of year is appropriate.

And hell, I'm still a Celt, so this month is Samhain to me too.

Speaking of which, is there anyone here who knows of anything in particular that John/Isep enjoyed eating or drinking? I traditionally do a "ghost feast" at Samhain, preparing and serving the favorite treats (or as close as I can figure) of various ancestors and telling their stories, then filling a plate of offerings for the ancestors to enjoy while the living celebrate by sharing the rest.

I try to make a point of remembering akhu that don't have a lot of people to remember them, like my Russian professor in college who basically lived for her students, but only had one son in Israel to mourn her when she died (the college did not share news of her death in an appropriate manner).

Senebty,
-- Llyne Merytamon.

--------------------
You can surrender
Without a prayer
But never really pray
Pray without surrender
-- Rush

Llyne Burton, Priest Candidate
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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Lilairen
KOL


Reged: 02/20/03
Posts: 323
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Re: Isep new [Re: Llyne_Merytamon]
      #20290 - 10/17/03 07:18 PM

Llyne:

I know nothing about this man, I do not know if I know any of the people who knew him. I have seen only the traces of hints and have no knowledge of what happened, of where the conflict came from, of where truth lies.

But in your writing about him, about your anger and understanding, I feel, suddenly, that I may have come to know him.

In the power and the truth of your writing, perhaps I hear him too.

By these things is his name known. By these things will his name be remembered. By these things will his name live forever.

By these things I have tears for a man I never knew, and I offer them to him: this cool water for a man who will learn to be an akhu on the strength of such offerings.

Kheperu.

--------------------
Daughter of Het-Herw and Khnum, Beloved of Set and Wepwawet
Chatting with: Anpw, Djehuty, Bast, Nebet-Het, and Sekhmet


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Wosret
Unregistered




Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: tamarion]
      #20319 - 10/18/03 11:26 PM

Em hotep,

I only heard about this yesterday (Friday), and I'm deeply saddened by it. John wasn't my favourite person in the world, but even after attacking me, my friends, my Sebeau, and my faith, I still hoped he'd realise what great things he could accomplish. He was one of the most determined people I know, and I'm at a loss to really describe how his death makes me feel.

Without John, I probably wouldn't browse these boards every now and then. I'd be far less aware of the depth that the various Kemetic faiths are gaining as time goes on. He made me question myself at times, to re-evaluate my positions, and yes, he tested my ability to care about every child of Netjer (every human being) simply for being a child of Netjer.

I'm praying that the next 70 days prepare him for the Weighing of his Heart, so that when he stands in the Hall of Judgement, his life/heart will find its balance.

WosretBast
>^, ,^< MEOW!
Sat Bast, meryt Wesir her Hethert


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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


Reged: 06/12/01
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Re: John/Isep Reflections new [Re: Wosret]
      #20320 - 10/19/03 12:05 AM

Em hotep Wosret

Thank you for your reflections.

There are some pretty funny ironies in all of this aren't there?

John was kicked out of KOL and Per Ankh for his refusal to stop making attacks on individual persons within your temple and refusing to stop using derogatory names towards your temple or persons in it.

That is when he started attacking us in that same manner
*chuckle* Apparently before that we were the cats meow:)

Best

Rev Renee

--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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RevSedgwickAdministrator
Heri Tep Hem Netjer


Reged: 04/12/02
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Re: Isep new [Re: Llyne_Merytamon]
      #20395 - 10/20/03 08:54 PM

Em hotep, everyone! <bow>

It was very moving being at John's memorial service Thursday evening, being able to say some of the old prayers, to wish him "a thousand of everything good," and to participate in helping him move from this world to the West. In those moments it was pretty easy to think of him as someone beloved of Sekhmet, who loved Sekhmet fiercely, who was deeply hurt and confused and frightened and hid all that behind a facade of bravado, and who in some way really thought he was doing ma'at by his actions.

That was nice. Now, however, that understanding of him is balanced, perhaps overbalanced, by the memory of what he did to people in the Kemetic community: how he exploited any possibility for tension, misunderstanding, and confusion; how he devoted his life to digging up anything he could about Kemetic leaders and exposing it (and of course everyone has something he or she would rather not have the whole world know); how he systematically preyed on vulnerable women in our community, giving them support with one hand while with the other he hacked into their bank accounts and credit cards and wiped them out; and how he resolutely denied that there was any good in him or any other choice open to him. That was not nice.

It was and is my belief that John had the possibility of being different and of living differently--but he chose not to believe in that possibility. That is a tragedy, and it hurt him and a lot of other people.

But, as Wosret says above, John was also a catalyst, as volatile elements often are. Here at Per Ankh his actions and the response to those actions helped us clarify our policies on some important issues. That's a good thing. It seems that Wosret found John's influence helpful in opening up additional areas to explore. That's another good thing. I'm sure other people can describe ways in which John's presence in their lives or their communities had, in the end, a positive effect.

I'm not sure I want to hang out around volatile reagents, just because they may bring about a positive result. I'd just as soon stay away from them and be aware of their potential for harm. But, when a positive result has occurred, we might as well acknowledge that. And it's on that basis that I offer prayers for John's speedy journey to the West, and his justification there. I really want the goodness of John to be present in our lives as one of our akhu. He was a really, really smart guy, and for that reason alone worth having around.

Guided by the akhu who traveled this way before him,
Strengthened by the prayers of Netjer's children,
John Hagins is now
within the arms of His Mother Sekhmet
within the arms of His Father Wesir
within the arms of Netjer.

Kheperu!

Rev Sedgwick


--------------------
Rev Sedgwick Heskett, Hemet NebetHet-Nit and Amun
Heri Tep Hem Netjer Per Ankh
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Isep new [Re: RevSedgwick]
      #20398 - 10/20/03 09:42 PM

If only the positive aspects of him do stay around. What happens if he chooses not to go west, but to do what he deems necessary to us here?

This IS Isep, after all.



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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


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Re: Isep new [Re: Anonymous]
      #20404 - 10/20/03 11:11 PM

Hotep there anon
<bow>

If you mean the John Hagins we knew would certainly have enjoyed and possibly chosen such an option.... I would have to agree.

The thing is these 70 days between death and judgement are not just a myth. They are real...

And the options and possibilities for change they open are great.

More importantly--this is not just up to John

As Rev Sedgwick pointed out in another post..
Our prayers can help tip the scale.

Netjer also has something to say about what can happen.

And John/Isep is a REAL person...he is not just his bad actions. It is easy to make things black and white with John because of how public he was about his bad behavior and his publically expressed pride in doing such things.

While admitting this in public does NOT as someone pointed out make his actions any less "bad". It also does not make it more "bad"..it just makes it more John/Isep-like:)

You, as well as us..can be a part of helping this choice be the right one.
(You may want to consider if you prefer the idea of John/Isep the Akhu or John/Isep the Mischevious Mut!)

In doing so you not only help John..but you help the community and you show your belief in the Kemetic worldview

...in Netjer... in the self regulating mechanisms of Ma'at..and in the infinite possibility for life and healing that Netjer has provided us

At issue here is not only Johns belief and faith...
But our own.

Blessings

Rev Renee






--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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Semaysekh
Unregistered




Re: Isep new [Re: RevRenee]
      #20420 - 10/21/03 02:47 AM

My apologies.

Anon was me. I thought I'd typed my name in, but I did not. My mistake.

Here is what I stand by, though, as I have gotten this advice from my Mother and prefer her judgement.

I will mourn for the loss of John and for those he hurt. I will not be praying for his judgement to go favorably though. From what was made clear to me in prayer and meditation, praying for someone in this time is similar to standing alongside them. It is similar to being there for them and speaking for their deeds.

I do not know John's good deeds. I cannot speak for the good of this man. If I were to speak for him or defend him or stand alongside him in this time of judgement, it would be against Ma'at.

I can believe that John had good in him. I can believe that all have good in them. But I am not someone who can attest to that good.

Asking if I want Akhu John or Mut John is also expecting me to make a very selfish response. What I want.. what anyone wants.. is of very little import right now.

Mind you, my stance on this is not one of hatred. It's one of indifference. I do not, quite honestly, have a concern whether or not John Hagins is venerated as an Akhu, condemned to time as a Mut, or whether his soul is consumed into nothingness. That is not me being heartless, but rather me being pragmatic. There are numbers here who insist John was a good man, and that he had some rough breaks. This was not what I saw. This was not what many saw. Me offering a prayer in his name does no good. It is hollow.

In short.. I do not deny John's intelligence. I do not deny he could have been what everyone says he's been.

But I do deny that I have seen those things. I offer my prayers for those he's hurt, just like I offer prayers for all that have been hurt by those who hurt the innocent and weak.

I'll let those who truly knew John's beauty pray for him.

Semaysekhmet.


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RevReneeAdministrator
Founder-Wehemu


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Re: Isep new [Re: Semaysekh]
      #20422 - 10/21/03 03:03 AM

Hotep Semaysekhmet;
<bow>

I'm curious who you see here as claiming John was a good man.
He was not..and I have not seen any posts here saying he was.

There were two people who made such comments at his memorial. One because the person couldn't handle the intensity of negative feelings at the time called afterwards to be sure we knew (people deal with death and grievig differently)

And one who I think would actually make such a claim

My opinion is that such a claim is irresponsible.
EVEN IF John treated the individual well...and I would say that is one big if...he at the same time used them and resources of theirs or in their homes to hurt others

If he lends money or gives gifts..at the same time as rioing others off..Geez I could not see him as a best friend.

I do not see your stance as one of hatred. I believe the difference is one of worldview...

Particularly how we understand interconnectedness of all of us in a community during....and after death.

I think this is a good conversation:) Thanks and feel free to continue to share your point of view.

Best

Rev Renee


--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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RevSedgwickAdministrator
Heri Tep Hem Netjer


Reged: 04/12/02
Posts: 361
Loc: Racine, WI
Re: Isep new [Re: Semaysekh]
      #20423 - 10/21/03 03:07 AM

Hotep, Semaysekhmet! <bow>
Quote:

From what was made clear to me in prayer and meditation, praying for someone in this time is similar to standing alongside them. It is similar to being there for them and speaking for their deeds. I do not know John's good deeds. I cannot speak for the good of this man. If I were to speak for him or defend him or stand alongside him in this time of judgement, it would be against Ma'at.


I have never heard of anything like this. Is it an insight you gained through prayer alone? Or is there a source we can look at, too?

To my mind, at this moment, the most important reason for my prayers is not to enumerate John Hagins' good deeds, but rather to stand for Ma'at by not eliminating anyone from the community of life.

Rev Sedgwick (too pooped right now to write more)

--------------------
Rev Sedgwick Heskett, Hemet NebetHet-Nit and Amun
Heri Tep Hem Netjer Per Ankh
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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semaySekh
Unregistered




Re: Isep new [Re: RevSedgwick]
      #20448 - 10/21/03 02:38 PM

Mostly through prayer and meditation. There's not really much of a source, short of, again, what was said to me directly in prayer.

As for not eliminating one from the community of life.. in the end, that is not something I have control over. It is between John and Ma'at.

Semay



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RevReneeAdministrator
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Re: Isep new [Re: semaySekh]
      #20453 - 10/21/03 04:04 PM

Hotep Semay!
<bow>

If you heard it in prayer you need to go with that!

I would suggest however that it's not a good position as a general stance for Kemetics. Let me explain.

Imagine going to a Priest about a relative who died and instead of them instantly lighting candles and doing the appropriate rites they replied:

"I personally did not know this person. I have heard or seen some bad behavior and people hurt. Therefore I cannot do Heka or pray that your relative be justified or do the traditional rites for him/her"

Heh...To be even more to the point. Imgine a Mortuary temple with a bunch of wab priests and medical folk doing the work of mumification for some official who died..or for that matter anyone. Often they knew nothing about the person..(and surely as high officials all had such treatment on death and it is not reasonable to assume that none were corrupt and the cause of pain among people)

I cannot imagine the Ancient's holding a belief of the sort you describe....

Clearly for them insuring the individual journey be successful WAS an issue for the community..not just between the person and Ma'at. They believed their actions or non-action (which I always remind folks--IS a form of action and at times an appropriate one) had an impact on the result.. and infact they had a responsibility to Ma'at to aid in bringing the proper outcome.

I suspect this difference between our understanding of Ancient ways and what you personally feel directed to do..is why I suspect Rev Sedgwick asked about sources.

Your experience, my experience..is valid regardless of what any sources say of course:)

I believe when any of us feel we have received a message from Netjer, (especially when it confirms out temple's teachings) , it is better to follow that than question it.
On some level all we have to go on is our own experience od Netjer. So please hear that I am not suggesting you do something against what you feel Sekhmet has asked.

I would question the interpretation of this in terms of being a good or viable theology for Kemetic temples and folks generally to adopt for some of the reasons stated in this post.

Senebty!

Rev Renee



--------------------
Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset
Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director
Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt
http://www.per-ankh.org


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