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Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all) Nebra KOL Reged: 08/01/02 Posts: 2383 Loc: Left kansas withToto Does Per Ankh have a Nisut?       #7173 - 09/10/02 12:22 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Renee or Jade or just any one...... does Per-ankh have a Nisut if so who? (second dumb question) how was He or She chosen or did this person choose themselves.... Nebra -------------------- Icon Photo Gallery Edited by Renee (01/31/03 07:08 PM) Post Extras:       RevRenee Founder-Wehemu Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2727 Loc: Racine Wisconsin Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Nebra]       #7184 - 09/10/02 06:07 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Em hotep Nebra Answer to question one...NO. We don't have a King since we don't have a nation. And no one of us believes ourselves to be divine or "part divine" WE DO have a First Servant who in ritual context serves the spiritual role of the Nisut and who is organizational matters has final say and that is Rev Jade. Her authority is not total as we have in place a clear system of checks and balances. IN some matters she is accountable to other members of the organization. We discuss the specifics of how this works in our new members class Best Renee -------------------- Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt http://www.per-ankh.org Edited by RevRenee (03/17/04 04:32 AM) Post Extras:       RevRenee Founder-Wehemu Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2727 Loc: Racine Wisconsin Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Nebra]       #7185 - 09/10/02 06:12 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Hotep ! For further consideration of the question of the Nisut today see the following thread: Discussion of Question of a Nisut Today Blessings Renee -------------------- Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt http://www.per-ankh.org Post Extras:       Jade shemsu per ankh Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2127 Loc: The San Francisco Bay Area Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Nebra]       #7187 - 09/10/02 06:44 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Hotep Nebra! First of all, as a former teacher, questions are NOT dumb. LOL. We encourage you to ask any and all questions. If you don't ask, you can't know! Second, in regards to a "Nisut", we do not have one. The Nisut served two functions in Ancient Egypt, one as king/leader of a country and one as a spiritual leader. Well, we don't have a country, so we don't really need a king. However, we did feel that we needed more of the second role that the Nisut played. So, we looked to the temples, themselves to get more insight. Who was the leader of the temple? In essence, the "High Priest" of the temple who coordinated all the events of the temple, who led the other priests, who served that function? After much research and questions to the experts, we determined that the head of the temple, the Heri Tep (or First Servant), was that person. Consequently, the leader of Per Ankh is called "Heri Tep Per Ankh.". Anyways, that's the short version of the story. m ma'at jade Heri Tep Per Ankh -------------------- ******* Shemsu Per Ankh (http://www.per-ankh.org) (http://www.kemetonline.com) Post Extras:       Nebra KOL Reged: 08/01/02 Posts: 2383 Loc: Left kansas withToto Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Jade]       #7188 - 09/10/02 07:19 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Thanks for the answers...... Not to put to fine a point on things but the truth is this...... I once considered joining another temple until I read the application...... they wanted me to agree to the leadership of a self proclaimed Nisut..... I couldn't........ to me that sounded like someone claiming to be God and the other problem was their insistance that I give up believing that Ra found me...( hey it's not like I chose him)...they insisted that Ra children are rare and only the Nisut had that right........ hey I'm not a goddess or a Pharaoh and don't want to be...... I have no problems with a high priest or priestess that is only right and profoundly proper....... I guess I should have asked before but to be honest the feel of Per-ankh felt right so it never occurred to me until this morning and even then I think I knew th answer....... When I sent in my application to you I felt no sense of betrayl the way I did with the other group....... and this time I didn't recall the application...... and never once worried about sending it...... also the fact you don't believe divination of parents was also something of a relief..... that too sounded fundimentally wrong...... and I got the impresson so do you....... Thanks -------------------- Icon Photo Gallery Post Extras:       RevRenee Founder-Wehemu Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2727 Loc: Racine Wisconsin Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Nebra]       #7195 - 09/10/02 09:56 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Em hotep Again.. I realize that the link I gave serve only those who are kemetonline members. Let me repost a response I made in that thread that might help clarify the Nisut role in Ancient times and in our temple today. <<n Ancient Egypt the Nisu[t] was seen as the incarnation of Heru. A living God herein the material world who acted as the intermediary between humanity and the divine. >> Well as both human AND in some sense Divine. What that meant for the Ancients is a subject of great debate. Even when the idea of divinity is believed to have been strongest (Akhenaten) They also distinguished between the "Great God" or Netjer/Netjeru and the "Good God" or the Nisut. What is not subject to debate is the Nisut's role as an intermediary between humanity and the divine and the unifier of the land and sustainer of Ma'at. In most Ancient African cultures this role is assumed by the Priests and sometimes there is --and othertimes there is not-- a King. <<As such their power and authority was seen (in theory) as being absolute and unquestionable. .>> Again see for instance David Lortons paper on the web which was delivered at annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature on November 18, 1995. Lorton's Paper on Kingship There is infact a lot of debate among those who study ancient Egypt as to the meaning of "divinity" in the case of the Nisut. Certainly Lanny Bell and Frankforter do not agree on the nature of this role or meaning of "divinity" or the living Heru. And while for US TODAY to even suggest such a role would seem to imply cult like absolute and mechanical obedience...I do not believe this sort of relationship between the King and his sunjects was what it meant for the Ancient Egyptians or how they lived. Consider for example that immediately accross from the Temple depicting Hapeshut as Divine was a mural of her having sex in a very submissive position---and very human indeed!! The fact that this was a form of humor to the Ancients is one of many indications that their notions of authority were very different from our modern notions <<Thus they were the sole ruler of the earthly realm (Egypt) with authority in the divine realm as well. The Nisu[t] was the King of Egypt>> The Nisut was also subject to Ma'at. The King was educated by teachers and was not expected to be expert in studies or spiritual matters, temples were as you mention run by councils of Priests. And more importantly as David Lorton points out: While work on the religious aspects of the kingship represents a front on which there is still much progress to be made, it has proceeded at the expense of the near total neglect of the exercise of the office, with the result that there can even seem to be an unbridgeable gap between the theory and the pracice of kingship. As indicated, however, there is evidence bearing on the practical side of the royal office, as well as evidence bearing on how this (to us) evident gap was bridged in the minds of the ancient Egyptians. The quantity of religiously weighted information on the kingship makes this aspect of it an understandable preoccupation, but in the longer run, we must strive to make this institution an object not just of intellectual history, but of social history as well. In other words, the seeming divide between the practice of councils of Priests and the Ideology of Kingship may infact be just that...the appearance of a division --- for the division and this notion of authority comes from our modern world view...not necessarily the actual culture, practices and beliefs of the Ancient Egyptians. If Lorton and I are correct on this...then to assert a "Nisuts" absolute and unquestionable correctness on matters of faith would be as far from the culture of the Ancients...as rejecting the role as necessarily a dangerous form of leadership. My studies of both Ancient Egypt and the institution of Kingship in other African Traditions lead me to believe that both "sides" of the Nisut debate may be reacting to a straw man...that is to a view of kingship in Ancient Egypt foreign to the Ancients. Senebty! Rev Renee -------------------- Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt http://www.per-ankh.org Post Extras:       Nebra KOL Reged: 08/01/02 Posts: 2383 Loc: Left kansas withToto Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #7196 - 09/10/02 11:26 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   If I read this correctly what you are saying is that the the semi-divine Nisut's position was to assue that Maat was maintained and that the priests handled all things religious...... and if there is no Nisut. it then falls to the full priesthood or a chosen group of priests to see that the laws of Maat are upheld which makes perfect makes sense........ it's like the college of Cardinals running the Catholic Church if there is no pope.... -------------------- Icon Photo Gallery Post Extras:       RevRenee Founder-Wehemu Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2727 Loc: Racine Wisconsin Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Nebra]       #7198 - 09/10/02 11:50 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Em hotep Nebra, In part yes. I am going beyond that though. I am suggesting that "semi divine" to the Ancient Egyptians may mean something very different than it does to our modern ears. For one thing...we assume if a leader is divine (semi or totally) then they would be the spiritual leader and primary teacher of our organizations. Yet in ancient times the Nisut was not considered a "theologian" or "philosopher" or "scholar". He (or She ) took advice from and studied with and under scholars of various fields. The idea of a spiritual leader/guru/teacher really would not jive with the Ancient Egyptian culture and ways of thought. Also the theory was that ONLY the King was Priest. Well you and I know rhat in practice there were many Priests who acted AS King during rites in their respective temples/areas. Just what does "acting as King" entail? It entails possessing the Kingly ka! In some sense then each Priest and potentially each shemsu incarnates the Kingly Ka in ritual practice. This makes sense as in prayer each identifies himself or herself as a "Son of Ra" . It IS true that the Nisut WAS the symbolic unity of the people, the priesthood and the Netjeru. The tendency toward gurism in some modern religious groups where loyalty to the leader takes precidence over (or is considered an integral part of) obedience to the Netjeru is one we of Per Ankh consider unhealthy and even dangerous as well as having little real resemblance to ancient Egyptian ways. Our Heri Tep (First Servant) serves as a point of unity. But loyalty to her will never be confused by our members with loyalty to Netjer. And while we revere the role she plays in ritual holdingthe Kingly Ka and our unity as an organization...we know she is not a "Great God" and will never call or relate to her in that way. Instead we revere the Netjer who have goven us a faith community and chosen leaders to teach and assist members on their path...and help mediate the presence of Netjer to our membership and our world. They do so in a more intensified way..and are held more directkly accountable for their actions in this regard. However all members may mediate Netjer to one another and in the world. Blessings Rev Renee -------------------- Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt http://www.per-ankh.org Post Extras:       Nebra KOL Reged: 08/01/02 Posts: 2383 Loc: Left kansas withToto Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #7208 - 09/11/02 11:44 AM Edit   Reply   Quote   I understand and agree with your point ...We moderns view the past with eyes that see power as an absolute in a lot of ways...so we have become cautious of those who claim to have godly power and rightly so...it's much to easy to abuse it in the name of faith...... I've read a number of articles that claim most if not all Pharaoh's had little religious training that it was in fact second sons that were trained to the church..... Pharaoh did have a day filled with ceromonial duties but was not a religious thinker....... he was more a living religious icon...( you don't ask Ra's living icon to work you do the work for him he is after all Gods image)... and when you consider that it was a government filled with his blood relatives.... Pharaoh was in that respect like 'the one and the many' also these relatives all carried a tinture of the holy in their blood like the Gods and Goddesses carried Ra in them...... So the daily business went on with out Pharaoh doing much...... his relavies who knew the job did the work..... but when a national crisis occurred he was called upon to take command or do extra sacrific to avert the trouble and to help rebalance Maat...... somehow being Pharaoh when viewed in these terms sounds lonely...... there is no warmth in being worshiped...... I'd rather be the second child ...... less worship and more of the human -------------------- Icon Photo Gallery Post Extras:       Ihyani KOL Reged: 09/19/02 Posts: 118 Loc: Texas, USA Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #7624 - 09/19/02 07:36 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   You know, the more I learn about Per Ankh, the more I like it. -- No self-proclaimed god-priest and freedom of religious thought--- definately pluses. Em Hotep, Ihyani -------------------- Em Hotep, Ihyeni Post Extras:       RevRenee Founder-Wehemu Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2727 Loc: Racine Wisconsin Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Ihyani]       #7625 - 09/19/02 08:03 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Hotep Ihyani , Uh...ohhh ........We are not that free It is true we make no claims to divinity. However, our temple is hardly an "anything goes" and/or all "ideas are equal sort of place." We place strong value on competence whether this be in personal religious practice or education and scholarship For instance..If someone says the Ancient Egyptians are Aliens from out of space...we kindly invite them to find another temple Similarly anyone who insisted on positions contrary to known facts about ancient Egypt would be VERY unhappy as a Per Ankh member. Not everyone will find us a good fit. Some people may be called to serve in ways less traditional (say Tamarans etc). What is true is that the Ancient faith had great flexibility despite a clear hierachical leadership structure. We try to bringthat flexibility into the modern practice of the Ancient Faith. Blessings and glad to see you here Rev Renee -------------------- Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt http://www.per-ankh.org Post Extras:       Ihyani KOL Reged: 09/19/02 Posts: 118 Loc: Texas, USA Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #7626 - 09/19/02 08:30 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Aliens? Like Stargate? LOL I ment that it is freer than I'm used to, Wab Renee. I'm going to have to learn to be more specific. I just filled out the affiliate membership form for Per-Ankh and hope to be accepted. -------------------- Em Hotep, Ihyeni Post Extras:       Anonymous Unregistered Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Ihyani]       #7627 - 09/19/02 08:36 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Hotep:) I just wanted to be sure we were not being complimented for somethingthat would later disappoint. I am aware that there are some less flexible organizations out there. Actually I'm not a Wab Priest... The W3B was a joke "WEB Priest" Now thatthe temple has grown Rev Jade and I should probably change those titles heh I am the Second Servant and Educational director. Hemet Netjer Sekhmet and Aset . Don't be too worried about the application. Rev Jade will review and ask for my input and then you should receive a letter from us. Unfortunately we just began a new members class Meanwhile KemetOnLine has tons of discussions and I do know that application has been accepted . Blessings Rev Renee Post Extras:       Nebra KOL Reged: 08/01/02 Posts: 2383 Loc: Left kansas withToto Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Ihyani]       #7629 - 09/19/02 09:03 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   They always have been ....... governments and heads have fallen for lack of them..... sorry I read to much history -------------------- Icon Photo Gallery Post Extras:       pharaohslotus KOL Reged: 04/16/03 Posts: 161 Loc: my heart is wherever my temple... Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: Nebra]       #15303 - 04/18/03 07:13 AM Edit   Reply   Quote   I think that's wonderful that Ra found you. Pursue that connection with him with all your heart. I also was on that site you were mentioning and I was disappointed to think that they would be the ones who chose which Netjer I worship. I was always drawn to Wesir and read some inspiring stories on that site by Djedet, but I couldn't agree with the parent divination they were doing and wouldn't want to give up the idea of worshipping the form of Netjer that I choose. I know where you're coming from. Also regarding your comments about Stargate type stuff, I agree. I did not like that they portray Neter so often as the bad guys in the movies on Ancient Egypt. Personally it doesn't matter to me if Netjer were "aliens" or born on this planet. Netjer can be anywhere and everywhere and I'm sure they work on many differnet levels that we can't even begin to comprehend, but I very much wish they were given the respect that all the modern deities of the major world religions are given. I have put up with too many people putting down my yearning to worship "the outer form" and I think I'm going to like this group because they support the personal type of devotion to Neter which the other site did too but I couldn't accept the idea of a parent divination being chosen by someone else for me. -------------------- What made the Ancient Egyptian religion last so long? The fact that we LOVE everything beautiful and creative. Nutjeru LOVE beauty and joy and devotion! Post Extras:       RavenDarkstorm KOL Reged: 08/05/05 Posts: 2 Loc: NY USA Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #25150 - 08/05/05 07:15 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   I to almost joined the place with the self proclaimed Pharoh.. and when I found Per-Ankh I sorta breathed a huge mental and spiritual sigh of relief. -------------------- "She's a Goddess of wrath , anger, and destruction.. no .. no I dont think she wants any ice cream." Edited by RavenDarkstorm (08/05/05 07:15 PM) Post Extras:       RevRenee Founder-Wehemu Reged: 06/12/01 Posts: 2727 Loc: Racine Wisconsin Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RavenDarkstorm]       #25156 - 08/06/05 04:34 AM Edit   Reply   Quote   Em hotep Raven, <bow> There are many who claim to be Pharoh, Nisut etc. The groups ideologies and structures vary a great deal from one another. If you do a search you can find some threads where we discuss this issue. Very Best -------------------- Rev Renee Levant, Hemet Sekhmet & Aset Founder & Wehemu & Educational Director Per Ankh: The Traditional Religion of Ancient Egypt http://www.per-ankh.org Post Extras:       Yum Razams Unregistered Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #25495 - 11/12/05 12:53 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Reply to Renee: I'm glad to hear that the group does not have a king... who needs one, anyway. What surprises me is to hear your denial of the auto-deistic concept of the ancient Kemit philosophical thought. I think this topic needs a further explanation Post Extras:       lagoon_shadows KOL Reged: 12/12/05 Posts: 32 Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #25566 - 12/18/05 06:35 AM Edit   Reply   Quote   We're ALL ALIENS! Worship those in outer space! Kidding! I do like this site much better then the other. The other has some interesting ideas, and I was a bit surprised by the Parent thing since it's something I had -never- thought of (but I'd be lying if I said I never felt like Bast is a Mother figure of sorts to me from time to time). Not to say I don't appreciate the efforts and the openess of the other group, but I do like this site a lot better. So since we're discussing structure and such, what is the next step to becoming a full member? Or.. am I being silly and already a member? -------------------- Abstract, the finding of truth behold Forever in the hearts of many A calling... Forever in their depths of our souls.. Livejournal Post Extras:       WabAndy Wab Priest Reged: 12/31/02 Posts: 453 Loc: New Hampshire Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: lagoon_shadows]       #25608 - 12/24/05 08:04 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Em Hotep, *bow* We srtongly recomend that anyone who is interested in membership in Per Ankh spend a signfigant amount of time (at least several months) participating on KOL, as well as taking the Welcome Workshop that Wab Jen teaches... This is a period of trying on and getting to know our worldview and way of doing things... That's the place to start. Don't feel like you're getting left out of anyting by doing that. If you want to talk to a priest about an experience or whatever, please just contact one of us and we'll arange that. Senebty, Wab Andy -------------------- Andy Dolph, Wab Priest Aset-Hethert Per Ankh The Traditional Reigion of Ancient Egypt Post Extras:       sathouthor KOL Reged: 12/30/05 Posts: 12 Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: RevRenee]       #25696 - 01/09/06 04:15 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   hem hotep My french community (Ta Noutri) doesn't wish to have a nisut because we think that this system would not function in our modern society. The pharaonic royalty seems to us an old vision of the organization of society.The organization of Egypt and its religion would have probably to evolve, if its tradition had not been stopped (personnal point of view, you can think diferent of course ) In french, if my translation is bad...if someone understand french ?!? Ma communauté française Ta noutri ne souhaite pas avoir un Nisut (un pharaon), parce que nous pensons que ce sytéme ne fonctionnerai pas dans notre société moderne. La royauté pharaonique nous semble une vision ancienne de l'organisation de la société. L'organisation de l'Egypte et de sa religion auraient probablement évoluer, si sa tradition n'avait pas été interrompue. (point de vue personnel, vous pouvez penser différement biensur). Senebty Blessings Edited by sathouthor (01/09/06 04:18 PM) Post Extras:       DappledFox KOL Reged: 12/24/05 Posts: 37 Loc: Western Australia Re: My first and not the last dumb question [Re: sathouthor]       #25697 - 01/09/06 04:57 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   Em hotep. I understood your English just fine, SatHouthor, and I agree with you. If the Ancient Egyptians and their religion had been an unbroken culture and faith through the ages, I imagine that it would have evolved as the society around it evolved, which probably would have meant that the monarchy would have been dissolved or moved into a purely symbolic role, much like the British monarchy has. The British queen is technically the head of state, but she has very little real governing power (though, theoretically, she can veto bills, but realistically she is just a rubber stamp) and holds the title of "Defender of the Faith", but has very little actual influence within the Church of England. I believe the Nisut-bity of Ancient Egypt, had the position continued to exist, would have become much the same in modern times, if the civilisation had survived. So I personally believe that a true Nisut in the modern Kemetic faith is unnecessary. I think of it more as having been a position of political prudence and "world's best practice" at the time, that is redundant in modern times. Post Extras:       Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)

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